Hulver's site || Favourite spirit

Favourite spirit \| Favourite drink

Whisky	10 votes - 47 %
Whiskey	6 votes - 28 %
Bourbon	2 votes - 9 %
Gin	3 votes - 14 %
Vodka	3 votes - 14 %
Brandy	1 vote - 4 %
Rum	6 votes - 28 %
Absinthe	0 votes - 0 %
Ouzo	2 votes - 9 %
Some euro thing based on a herb	1 vote - 4 %
I don't drink spirits	1 vote - 4 %
I don't drink	1 vote - 4 %
WIPO	1 vote - 4 %
The Holy	0 votes - 0 %
Team	0 votes - 0 %
--	1 vote - 4 %
WIPO	2 votes - 9 %
Water	3 votes - 14 %

21 Total Votes

Sometimes a great nation. | 36 comments (36 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback

whiskey and whisky by Merekat (4.00 / 1) #1 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 09:41:04 AM EST

Though the 'e' varietal gets a nod solely due to Middleton.

Standard scotch single malts (10-12 years) appear cheaper in Switzerland than Ireland. Which is odd.

: Ireland by yicky yacky (2.00 / 0) #2 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 09:45:04 AM EST

seems to be somewhat schizophrenic. In many respects, it seems to partake in UK's penchant for an odd level of mark-up, but it doesn't seem to apply to the same degree, but in other aspects, it follows a more EU-style level, especially with regards to its own.

On the other hand, it's definitely one the finer places to get drunk, regardless of cost. ;)

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So, I'll bite. by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 1) #3 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 09:47:37 AM EST

I've never understood the difference between whiskey, bourbon and scotch. Other than I know I like Maker's Mark and Knob Creek. I had a shot of really expensive scotch once ($60 for the shot!) but it was wasted on me.

So, please, enlighten the n00b, please?

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Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.

Whisk(e)y by Phage (4.00 / 1) #4 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 09:57:11 AM EST

is the umbrella term for a number of drinks with different recipies. These recipies can vary even from one marque to another. IIRC correctly the major differences are in the grains used, and the barrels it's matured in.
The name is from the Gaelic meaning 'water of life'. When spelled with an 'e' it usually refers to the Irish kind.

The Czar of Accounting. No Nit Too Small To Pick
[ Parent ]

Whisky by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #6 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 10:20:55 AM EST

(no 'e') is Scottish (protected marque, I believe) and is usually, although not always, produced using a single-malt process whereby barley is converted to malt, which is then mashed to produce a starch-sugar liquid, which is then fermented, then distilled, then matured. All of these steps have their own intricacies, trade secrets and purity requirements across different brands. Different water and barley can produce greatly differing results too: barley roasted over peat tastes different to mill-dried barley etc. The number of times a distillation occurs; how the distillate is filtered, how the final product is stored etc. all add up. For example: I had a nice 17-year-old Bruichladdich a while ago, which had been "madeira finished" -- i.e. changed into old madeira port barrels for its final few years of maturation -- it added a rose colour and added a sweet twist to the aftertaste.

Whiskey (with an 'e') is usually used to cover non-Scotch whiskeys of all hues (although in the UK, it's often a synonym for Irish product, as others, e.g. Bourbon, go under those names).

'Bourbon' was perfected in America as an adjustment to the growing condiditons. The malt is majority-produced from corn rather than barley ('Straight Bourbon' must use at least 51% corn in the grain mash, must mature for at least two years and must contain nothing but undiluted grain distillates). It's usually produced by "sour-mashing" -- adding previous distillate to the following batch during the mashing stage to keep certain characteristics running. As it's corn-based, it's sweeter than scotch and, by and large, requires less time to reach maturity, although -- again -- local techniques and conditions vary. I think you can only call it bourbon if it's made in Kentucky (originally Bourbon county), but could probably be wrong as I've a feeling they changed that.

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Bourbon sweetness by R Mutt (4.00 / 2) #8 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 10:28:55 AM EST

I thought that was mainly due to it being matured in new barrels, so it absorbs the sweet taste from the wood.

(The bourbon casks can then be shipped to Scotland and reused for Scotch whisky, which requires used barrels).

[ Parent ]

: Yeah by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #9 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 10:40:19 AM EST

You're probably right. I'm not as up on the bourbon production method as the scotch one. There were an awesome set of pages online a few years ago, where the chief distiller at the Balvennie distillery explained exactly what went into the production of a specific expression (while keeping exact quantities secret) -- highly-detailed and fascinating -- almost a how-to if you had the equipment and time. Unfortunately, it seems to have been removed.

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The y by barooo (4.00 / 1) #30 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 03:50:23 PM EST

must not be strictly protected as only from scotland, because Maker's Mark bourbon is a Whisky.

[ Parent ]

: Possibly. by yicky yacky (2.00 / 0) #31 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:04:04 PM EST

Wikipedia says ...

Interestingly, Maker's Mark is one of the only American made whiskies to be spelled in the traditional form, "whisky," as opposed to "whiskey." Technically, in United States law, the official American spelling is "whiskey," but an exception exists to allow it be spelled without an "e." Maker's Mark does this as an homage to the creators Scottish heritage.

I think it's "Scotch" and "Scotch Whisky" that are protected marques globally, although, internally to the UK, it may be different again. The fact MM call it "Bourbon Whisky" probably ducks any issues there may be internationally.

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Supermarket whisky pricing by R Mutt (4.00 / 1) #5 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 10:02:43 AM EST

I keep an eye on the Malt Whisky shelf at Tesco online, and there seems to be a pretty steady cycle of "£5 off" special offers. I think every whisky must come up every 6 months or so.

Current examples:

The Glenlivet Single Malt Whisky 70cl
SAVE £5.00 Was £23.97 Now £18.97
The Balvenie Malt Whisky 70clProduct
SAVE £5.00 Was £24.97 Now £19.97

I think it's the same thing as they do with wine. The "special offer" is the real price, and the standard price has an extra markup.

I don't think this is anything to do with whisky in particular. The UK seems to have a huge amount of market segmentation pricing, where to get a decent price for anything you have to put in a load of effort and jump through many hoops. Monitor the whisky and wine shelf for six months till the offer comes up. Manually type six 12-digit voucher codes to get your Tesco points online. Ring up your mobile phone provider and get a lower tariff. Book train and plane journies well in advance at inconvenient times.

I'm sure there's a market failure there somewhere.

: I've got friends by yicky yacky (2.00 / 0) #7 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 10:26:35 AM EST

who've been steadily monitoring the Ardbeg prices and then buying in bulk at certain points in the year (probably during the cycles you highlight); partially because they like Ardbeg, but mostly because Glenfiddich (I think ... -- it may have been someone else) bought Ardbeg out in the late nineties and the taste is about to change slightly as the post buyout batches come online; so, in fifteen years (or so the theory goes), the pre-buyout versions with be worth ten times their current price. Although, lots of people seem to be doing this, so they'll probably all end up slightly disappointed.

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UK Cost by DullTrev (4.00 / 3) #10 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 10:43:24 AM EST

We're filthy stinking rich, is the problem.

Oh, alright. We tend to have a high disposable income compared to many other areas of Europe. At the end of the day, the price you pay for a product bears absolutely no relation to its actual value. The producer is pricing it at a level to maximise profit, and in the UK we're willing to pay higher prices.

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DFJ?

That doesn't make much sense by R Mutt (4.00 / 1) #18 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 11:19:41 AM EST

The producer (the distillery) doesn't sell much directly, he sells to the retailers. The retailer is unlikely to be willing to pay a higher price because he's filthy stinking rich: if he's filthy stinking rich it's because he's put a lot of effort into maximizing his profits.

If whisky is over-priced, it's more likely to be the retailer charging a greater price to the consumer.

So the question is, why does not, or cannot, the consumer find a cheaper retailer and buy from him instead.

Some of the possible answers:

Price-fixing and collusion
Higher retail rents and costs passed through to consumer
Excessive regulation (planning and licensing) leading to a high barrier to entry for retailers
Segmentation pricing: price-conscious consumers know how/where/when to get the product at a lower price

[ Parent ]

The risk of collusion by yicky yacky (2.00 / 0) #19 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 11:30:49 AM EST

is something which should probably be looked at. In recent years, the single-malt scotch industry has morphed in a similar way to the entertainment one. Diageo, Allied, Seagrams, United Distillers etc. control a surprisingly large slice of the market. I think I'm right in saying that none of the Islay companies are now completely independent (and many now share barley supply, for example). The old model of water supply + barley + malting + distillery as an independent entity has by and large collapsed. I can't remember the exact figures, but I remember reading a couple of years ago that there were only one or two operations in the whole of Scotland which still operated that way.

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Part 4 by ambrosen (4.00 / 1) #21 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 11:41:27 AM EST

Is quite likely to be that the consumer prefers to pay higher prices. They are after all buying exclusivity, and there's no point for the shop in offering something at standard markup when it's actually likely to sell more if it's premium priced.

The UK has an unusually efficient supermarket sector, so I doubt that's the case. And small whisky specialists in England? Well they're going to be wanting to make a living, aren't they? And they'd rather compete on service and tasting than price. So it looks more like perverse incentives.

[ Parent ]

Seems unlikely by R Mutt (4.00 / 1) #23 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 12:03:48 PM EST

People generally want to pay less for an identical product.

But let's take a look at what happens if you shop around for the popular 70cl Balvenie Doublewood 2 Year Old

You can buy a bottle at Tesco for £26.99.

Or you could buy direct from the distiller for £26.99.

You could go to an off-licence chain like Oddbins, and pay £26.99.

However, if you go to posh grocery deliverers Ocado, you pay more. £27.00

If people wanted to pay a bit extra for poshness, you'd expect the posher retailers to charge a bit more.

To me, the way the prices are so close, suggest either:

A wonderfully efficient market
Price collusion

[ Parent ]

Random guesses by DullTrev (4.00 / 1) #27 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 02:56:25 PM EST

Like I said, we are talking about maximising profits here, not necessarily maximising volume of sales.

I have no doubt that a distillery could sell massive amounts by flogging it dirt cheap, but that isn't really going to help them - the immensely long production times for whisky means that what a distillery wants more than anything else is some security of sales. That essentially means long term contracts with major retailers for the vast majority of their product, meaning control over the final price is in the retailer's hands, not the producer. (Confusingly, I class all of the filthy capitalists as the producers. It sounds better than "them bastards".) Perversely, I can see that this could mean there is only a very weak incentive to expand a distillery - the costs involved need to be carried for 8, 10, however many years before you start to get increased volume of product to sell.

Now the retailers have a very simple task - they have a relatively fixed amount of product, they have demand that can vary. I'm making the bold assumption that demand for Scotch whisky is greater in the UK than the rest of Europe. In which case, the retailer is able to sell for a higher price and still flog off all of their stock - while some consumers may go off to search for a cheaper price elsewhere, someone else will be right behind them to buy the bottle there and then.

I don't, however, understand why the big drink firms would, in such a scenario, continue to sell to the rest of Europe while there was still demand for whisky in the UK. But that's not a bad random guess, is it?

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DFJ?
[ Parent ]

But by R Mutt (4.00 / 1) #28 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 03:26:57 PM EST

The question was: why is the whisky so much cheaper in Greece than the UK. Obviously the distilleries want to be selling small quantities at high markups, but that doesn't explain why it's so much greater in one country than another.

First, I don't see how an overall volume argument makes sense for that. As you say, quantity demand is probably less in Greece: why should that make it cheaper there? If it's a more specialist niche with fewer economies of scale, that ought to make it more expensive there.

Second, if the distillery is selling to a Greek retailer at a low price, why aren't mighty price-squeezers like Tesco and Oddbins insisting they pay an equally low, or even lower price?

Third, if consumers aren't sensitive to pricing as you originally said, why are all four outlets I checked charging identical prices? (To the nearest penny).

[ Parent ]

: Come now by DullTrev (4.00 / 1) #32 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:58:59 PM EST

You can't expect me to read the question.

As I rambled, I can only assume that the problem is in demand and expectation. In the UK, whisky (at least the decent stuff...) is competing with other whisky and the purchasers of it expect to pay a premium, whereas in Greece it is competing with other spirits, requiring a lower price to get any sales. Mind, I still don't know why they'd bother trying to flog it in Greece.

As to the competition between supermarkets in the UK... thedrinkshop.com will flog the Balvenie at £28.59, weespeydram.co.ukn flog it for £29.99, drinksdirect.co.uk for £29.99, etc. The Tesco Price Check site (search for whisky) seems to suggest there is a fair amount of difference in pricing on some whiskies - probably about as much as there is in other products.

I can only assume that as most of the distilleries (allegedly) are part of large drinks companies, they a) have enough power to refuse the demands of supermarkets - a bottle of Talisker is not substitutable for a bottle of Dalwhinnie, unlike milk from Cheshire and milk from Lancashire, and b) feel some insane need to try and expand into different markets. Don't know why - unless they are trying to create a whole new market and then push up the price.

So, in conclusion, buggered if I know.

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DFJ?
[ Parent ]

Old Potrero by blixco (4.00 / 1) #11 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 10:47:05 AM EST

is a ways off. They had a bad batch, so they're shipping very slow, though EU may have some of the last batch still. The same distillery makes a gin, but I'd only recommend a bottle of it for use in a knife fight.

I found a place here that has Midleton for $200 (roughly £19.95), but I haven't had $200 to spend on whiskey in a long, long time.

Jim Beam is scary stuff, though the black is much better than most. The green label Rye is probably the best rye left in the major labels.
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"You bring the weasel, I'll bring the whiskey." - kellnerin

Also, by blixco (4.00 / 1) #12 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 10:51:42 AM EST

Anchor has a two new lines that haven't made it here yet: the Old Potrero 18th Century single malt whiskey (cask strength like the 19th Century Rye) and a blended called Hotaling's that is based on a turn of the century bay area whiskey, also a rye, also single malt, and probably largely unavailable anywhere but the Bay Area.

And, have you tried any of the Japanese whiskeys? They do a decent scotch.
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"You bring the weasel, I'll bring the whiskey." - kellnerin
[ Parent ]

I have tried Japanese whiskies by Phage (4.00 / 1) #13 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 10:59:29 AM EST

And they were awful. Especially Suntory which tasted like iron.

The Czar of Accounting. No Nit Too Small To Pick
[ Parent ]

I liked the Suntory Yamazaki by R Mutt (4.00 / 1) #20 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 11:36:48 AM EST

Never tried any non-single-malt Suntory though...

[ Parent ]

Huh. by blixco (4.00 / 1) #22 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 11:42:43 AM EST

The Yoichi single malt 15 is really nice. One of my favs, when I can find it (which is rare).
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"You bring the weasel, I'll bring the whiskey." - kellnerin
[ Parent ]

I did a bit of research by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #24 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 01:08:55 PM EST

and that looks very tempting indeed. Everyone seems to love it, and it trades over here for about $120.

Any thoughts on the Sazerac Rye 18yrs?

I also found this, although doubt I'll be touching it with the proverbial barge-pole at that strength.

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: I'm not by blixco (4.00 / 1) #29 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 03:31:00 PM EST

big on Sazerac, despite my New Orleans blood. My grandfather used to drink it in a sort of hopped-up mint julip.
That absinthe looks both tasty and terrifying.
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"You bring the weasel, I'll bring the whiskey." - kellnerin
[ Parent ]

My take by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #15 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 11:11:18 AM EST

on the likes of baseline Jim Beam et al is that they're the perfect stuff either a.) as something to throw cola on without a guilty conscience (although cheap-arsed rot-gut scotch works just as well, but IMO the sourmashes taste better), or b.) for when people are so far gone that any notion of refinement would be lost.

I tried some Suntory Yamazaki a little while ago -- theres a pub near Wigan that prides itself on having over 200 whisk(e)ys in stock -- and have to say that I found it very pleasant, although we'd just had a superb meal and I dare say that many others would have been equally appreciated in the circumstances. I certainly haven't tasted enough Japanese whiskey to be able to form a valid opinion on it generally.

That's partially the issue I was touching upon in the diary: I'd like to try more foreign whiskeys, but their disproportionate mark-up -- which is often equivalent to the price of a seriously good Scottish single malt by the time it gets to the shelves -- means that if I'm in the business of spending $80-$160 on a bottle, I'll tend to pick the premium scotch every time. For the price of Old Potrero, for example, you can yet a 20-year Bruichladdich, or a 15-year-old rum-cask-finished Ardbeg. It's not that the overseas whiskeys aren't great; it's that the acquired economic offset puts them in competition with serious single malts.

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16yo Lagavulin by Herring (4.00 / 1) #14 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 11:03:08 AM EST

is a perennial favourite. 17yo Ardbeg is very nice, but I can't find it anywhere around here. It's 82.37 times better than the 10yo.

I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. - Bill Bailey

: highland park by Merekat (4.00 / 2) #16 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 11:12:08 AM EST

18 year old. Yum.

[ Parent ]
: I go back-and-forth by yicky yacky (2.00 / 0) #17 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 11:17:29 AM EST

on the Lagavoo. Sometimes I think it's my all-time favourite, and other times it's too much. I think they add caramel colouring to it to make it that shade -- not that that's particularly bad (I've heard many others do it too), but it's kind of emblematic as to how Islay-ish it's trying to be: Too hard sometimes; it's the XR3i of Islay malts. The thing I love about it is that it's an awesome nightcap, and -- like the Laphroaigs -- seems to get even better after you've opened it for a few weeks.

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WIPO by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 1) #25 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 01:09:22 PM EST

Right now I'm on this "Cavalcade of Lesser Liquors" kick.

Mostly, of late, I've been dabbling in corn-based moonshine from tiny little micro-distilleries upstate.

Most taste the way old books smell, but the best are quite nice. Smoother than nearly a century of recorded blues and countries singers' voices would lead one to believe.

: Heh by yicky yacky (2.00 / 0) #26 Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 01:54:08 PM EST

I imagine I'll have to save those for the next NE USian incursion. If JB Black is rare-ish, and Old Potrero is scarce, they're probably like Godot over here.

Unfortunately, we don't really have such a tradition on these shores. There's a large "real ale" micro-brewery scene, and a large homegrown wine contingent, but the real moonshine is left to critically-endangered hippy types in the deep backwoods (Wales). I once had a mescaline-based moonshine from one of that species, though ... it was very ... interesting.

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pricing by 256 (4.00 / 1) #33 Fri Aug 24, 2007 at 05:48:36 AM EST

Jim Beam is one of my staple drinks. A bottle (75 cl) of JBwhite here (holland) will run you 13 euro. amazingly, that is a smidge cheaper than i used to pay for it in toronto, despite the much greater distance it need travel. Likewise Maker's Mark is slightly cheaper here than in Canada.

For that matter, Canadian Club is 14 euro a bottle (70 cl) which is pretty much the exact price that you pay for a 75 cl bottle in Toronto. So I think it is safe to assume that at least part of this is due to liquor sale in Ontario being a government monopoly.

What is perhaps stranger though is that a bottle of Jameson's Irish Whiskey (another of my staples)is 13 euro in Holland, which is slightly cheaper than at an off-license in Ireland and signiicantly cheaper than I recall it being at off-licenses in England.
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_{I don't think anyone's ever really died from smoking. --ni}

Yeah; that seems to tally. by yicky yacky (2.00 / 0) #34 Fri Aug 24, 2007 at 06:14:00 AM EST

Damn that high cost of living associated with European socialism, eh?

I tend to keep a cheaper bourbon handy, too (Usually JB White or Wild Turkey if flusher) as they're incredibly versatile, plus I don't feel guilty about doing 'blasphemous' things with it. In a similar vein for scotches, Grant's Family Reserve punches well above its weight. Incidentally, I had a couple of glasses of the JB Black late last night; it's really pretty good -- quite a bit more complex than the white but still smooth underneath. If it weren't so uncommon here (and disproportionately costly), I'd definitely switch to the black.

If you get chance (although you're on the move reasonably imminently, no?) can you see what the 10-yr Laphroaig goes for next time you're in the store? [I'm developing a new exchange rate based on Islay scotches].

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38 euro. by 256 (4.00 / 1) #35 Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 01:51:10 PM EST

also, i find your implication that wild turkey is preferable to jim beam disturbing.
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_{I don't think anyone's ever really died from smoking. --ni}
[ Parent ]

: Sirrah, by yicky yacky (2.00 / 0) #36 Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 02:40:54 PM EST

you may well have inferred it, but I implied nothing of the sort; merely that WT is more costly (and that occasionally a change is good). I prefer the JB Black to either at this point, however.

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Sometimes a great nation. | 36 comments (36 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback


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