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8 Total Votes
I've been away for a while... by Metatone (4.00 / 3) #1 Mon May 14, 2007 at 11:13:43 AM EST
Glad to hear you made it into the non-country club Euro Cup.

Attn nebbish infidel.. errm condolences on the footing ball performance of your team.



I'm sure that by yicky yacky (4.00 / 2) #3 Mon May 14, 2007 at 11:58:38 AM EST

the "Yorkshire Derby" will be the big draw of League One next year, although there seem to be plenty of northern clubs in that division (some may yet go up and some have gone down, though).

Incidentally; don't you think that going into administration on one day, and buying the club back the next is a tad ... fraudulent? I just can't square it with the principles of best practice, and am also not sure whether you should be able to go into administration when already relegated and take the points penalty as an inconsequence. It seems harsh on Leeds to demand that they be punished further, but what exactly are the rules for?


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Due to my two week holiday from the intarweb... by Metatone (4.00 / 2) #5 Mon May 14, 2007 at 01:28:49 PM EST
(CKG finally visited...)

I had not heard of any of those shenanigans either...

Basically:

  1. It reconfirms my view after a little reading about some of the financial dealings around Chelsea that Ken Bates probably shouldn't be allowed to own football clubs.
  2. It also reminds me of how weird company law is. To be honest, if it wasn't for the fact that this is a "big well known football team" I'm not sure they would get away with this. The idea that football related debts take priority over Inland Revenue debts is sort of bizarre and seems to be the main point of this manoeuvre, to defraud HMRC of the back taxes owed. I think if it wasn't for the potential bad PR, then HMRC would take the club to the cleaners (which would mean it would be utterly destroyed.)
  3. From the point of view of the football authorities, the problem is similar to the West Ham one. The situation smells fishy, but they can't change the rules retroactively. The season had one game left, so the deduction applies that season. You're entirely right that this is a loophole, but it seems Ken Bates was the first one tricksey enough to use it. They should close the loophole and they should get lawyers in to see if they can do something retroactively, but I doubt they can, I'm sure Bates has taken legal advice before he made the move.
  4. This reminds me how broken the club finances are. Basically this is the second time they've gone bust...


[ Parent ]

Way around the loophole by leviramsey (4.00 / 2) #7 Mon May 14, 2007 at 04:00:47 PM EST

10 point deduction is assessed as .22 point per game deduction over your next 46 games. Thus if you do it with one game to go in the season, the entire 10 point deduction is assessed the next season. If you do it after 40 games, its 1 point this season and 9 the next, etc.

In the North American leagues (most especially the NFL), Bates would have gotten on the "cannot own a franchise list" a fairly long while ago.

I was hoping that West Ham would be relegated and go on the Leeds Express to League One, but that has not happened. Fucking racist cockney shirt-stealing cheating thugs.

I am going to miss Neil Warnock next year. He is one of the most entertaining managers around. I would gladly trade him for the likes of Benitez.


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Could I be the next Lee Abrams?
[ Parent ]

To clarify the last paragraph: by leviramsey (4.00 / 1) #8 Mon May 14, 2007 at 04:01:46 PM EST

I would much prefer to have Warnock than Benitez.


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Could I be the next Lee Abrams?
[ Parent ]

Clarifications by Metatone (4.00 / 2) #10 Mon May 14, 2007 at 04:08:33 PM EST
I didn't mean to say that I thought it was hard to close the loophole in general (although your solution is very elegant.) Rather, I don't see them being in a good position to close it for Leeds. Changing the rules retroactively would be certain to attract a legal challenge.

Benitez can be quite entertaining in Spanish, sadly we don't get to see many of those interviews.

[ Parent ]

I'm not necessarily talking about his interviews by leviramsey (4.00 / 1) #14 Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:37:07 PM EST

But more about his style of play.

The scousers' trip to Villa Park is 2 hours of my life that I'll never get back...


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Could I be the next Lee Abrams?
[ Parent ]

While by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #11 Mon May 14, 2007 at 04:21:41 PM EST

I disagree with the "franchise" system for various reasons, your suggestion makes a lot of sense; certainly, something along those lines would be better than what they have now.

I think Metatone's right, though. Most of this has come about as a consequence of a system with inconsistent precedent and a lack of foresight. I imagine the loopholes will be closed fairly quickly, but the circumstances which lead to them being exploited weren't envisaged. It's not entirely unlike the situation where India started complaining about one of the Pakistan bowlers' actions, but they didn't do so until they lost a match, which weakened their case, as he'd been bowling that way for a while.

As I understand it, Leeds didn't actually need to do it, but they did it then as, seeing as they were getting relegated anyway, it was the more financially-sensible option. Boston United (about to fall out of the bottom of League Two) tried to emulate Leeds and went into administration halfway through the second half of their last game of the season (against Wrexham, which isn't so very far from me, so it was in the local media) as there was still a chance they might survive until that point. The league had already guessed they might try it, though, and warned them in advance that any decision on the points penalty would be taken by the league in light of the time left. It's still under review (complicated by the fact that Boston are dropping from one league system [The Football League] to another [The National Conference]).


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For the record by leviramsey (4.00 / 1) #13 Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:28:15 PM EST

There isn't a blacklist per se.

At least for the NFL, the franchise agreements state that a majority of the other owners have to approve changes in the ownership of a franchise; I can't think of a time that it's been used, but then again, the fact that you have to convince 16 groups that the league will be better off having you tends to filter out non-serious bids. For related reasons, the NFL (with the exception of Green Bay) prohibits corporate ownership, due to fears over publicly held companies messing things up.


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Could I be the next Lee Abrams?
[ Parent ]

Maybe I'm biased by nebbish (4.00 / 1) #18 Tue May 15, 2007 at 06:25:39 AM EST
But it's not *that* much of a loophole, is it? Considering our finances are fucked and we're going down yet again, would starting the next season with a ten point penalty on top of everything else been entirely fair?

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It's political correctness gone mad!
[ Parent ]

Like I said, by Metatone (4.00 / 2) #23 Tue May 15, 2007 at 07:55:10 AM EST
I don't think it would be fair to do anything about it in retrospect. And since I quite like Leeds, I wouldn't want them to have a ten point penalty anyway.

But they should change the rules for the future, as it's usually clubs close to relegation that end up in administration anyway, so if they are serious about discouraging clubs declaring bankruptcy, then they need to fix it. After all, Leeds were only certain for the drop on the last day, but some years teams are virtually certain by Christmas and definitely certain with a number of games to go (Watford knew with 7? I think this year.)

Of course, all that takes for granted that clubs going into administration needs extra punishing, but that's a complicated discussion for another day.

[ Parent ]

Dirty Leeds! [nt] by nebbish (4.00 / 2) #17 Tue May 15, 2007 at 06:21:07 AM EST

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It's political correctness gone mad!
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Heh by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #19 Tue May 15, 2007 at 07:18:04 AM EST

If you believe certain portions of the press, Everton should be relegated for conspiring to give United the title and entering into "third party" contracts. Like you, I may be biased, but it seems like bollocks. We'll have to wait and see.


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That one by nebbish (4.00 / 2) #20 Tue May 15, 2007 at 07:44:54 AM EST
Just seems very unlikely - if it turns out to be true... hmm, not good.

The 10 point deduction for going into administration looks a bit unfair to me - it seems that in most cases it will just further penalise clubs in financial difficulties. And surely the way a club wants to deal with those difficulties is its own business, unless they break the law, in which case it's the governments? Don't see where the FA comes in.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind a bit more transparency at Leeds. Where did the money go? Why did you tell us a few months ago that everything was fine?

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It's political correctness gone mad!
[ Parent ]

As I mentioned by yicky yacky (4.00 / 2) #25 Tue May 15, 2007 at 08:52:51 AM EST

to leviramsey, I'm not entirely sure that Leeds had to go into administration; they just did because it enabled them to wipe off the points penalty and, much more importantly, it enabled them to use bankruptcy law to put paying some debtors on hold and especially avoid paying all manner of government-owed monies.

I'm not saying this to have a go (The Toffees are ~£44 million in debt if the press are to be believed -- and that's just what they'll admit to), but to point out the reasons for the points penalty. There are plenty of off-field advantages to going into administration; the penalty is there to discourage clubs from choosing to do it, if it's at all unnecessary. Of course; you can always trust Uncle Ken to find a (fairly brilliant, actually) way around the codified regulations. They'll probably have to write more laws now, to cover what's supposed to happen.

I agree with Metatone, though; Leeds are too big to stay down, purely in terms of fanbase. IIRC, they're the club with the largest uncontested catchment area in Europe; like Newcastle, they're one of the few "massive city; only one club" teams. I can't see them being in League One longer than one or two seasons at most and, ultimately, they will get back to the top league. It may take a few years, though (which is a good thing, as Leeds fans will definitely get some things to celebrate in the near-ish future, as opposed to those mid-table Premiership stalwarts ... ahem ...). On the down side, I've a feeling you might have to get rid of Uncle Ken and dirty Den first.


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Administration by nebbish (4.00 / 2) #26 Tue May 15, 2007 at 09:31:57 AM EST
... But why does the FA have to get involved? You're right in saying it has it's up points and can be quite handy, but it's a radical decision with some serious downsides as well - it's not something businesses just leap into willy-nilly. It just seems to me that it's probably regulated quite properly enough by the government.

Anyway, my bias is showing here. Should add that I f**king hate the FA as well :)

Didn't know Everton were in debt - you do bloody well as well (as you say, second from top this season :)

I really do hope you're right about Leeds. Everytime I think it's going to be OK though I remember Nottingham Forest. Mind you, Man City were in a similar position once (OK, maybe not the best example of a team on the up and up), and Derby County might be in the Premiership next season.

Anyway, like you say it's years away.

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The F.A. by yicky yacky (4.00 / 2) #28 Tue May 15, 2007 at 10:34:41 AM EST

get involved because administration's a product of mismanagement, and mismanagement affects on-field matters as well as off-field matters, from having to give the club special dispensation over certain things to having to sort out player and manager situations. It's not really fair to confer those benefits on one club and not another. Why should a club which has tried its best within its means be treated the same as one which broke the bank, gambled and pretty much behaved irresponsibly? I take your point and am just playing devil's advocate, but I'm not completely sure I buy the separate worlds theory.

As I understand it, all the big clubs are in debt, all of the time (kind of like consumers). Leeds' trouble was that their debt hit £100M and, as I understand it, going over fifty or sixty is considered a big No-No. Newcastle are up to about £70M, I think, Man City are around £63M. Even clubs like Real Madrid are, in net terms, in debt. There was a period during the Peres administration when the lesser players weren't getting paid and the top ones were being topped-up from Peres personal funds.

It's the biggest myth in the world that clubs are rich: they're not; well, they are actually; but they're not really. It's complicated. Their value is based on many things, but mostly the land they own and especially projected future earnings. That doesn't change the fact that they still owe shedloads of money.

It's kinda like permanently having a credit card debt at £2,000; if you can afford the interest payments the debt stays the same; if you can pay off a bit more than that, the debt slowly comes down; if you can't quite afford it, it goes up (along with the interest). If you're clocking £2,000 a month, you can probably just about still afford the ~£400-a-month interest hit as well as other expenses, but it can very quickly hit a level where you're in trouble and it might catch you out.

Same with football. If you're clocking £50M a year, debts of £50M are just about handleable on top of other expenses. How much money you get depends on where you come, though; so you have to do as well as, or exceed, your own guesses in order to stay still or make money. Leeds gambled on the fact that they'd make the Champion's League again and didn't (albeit with a good side). If you've gotten to the point where you're banking on Champion's League football to cover the costs, there's a strong argument to say that you've seriously over-stretched yourself. Having said that, most of the top four are in precisely that position; if Arsenal had been beaten to fourth spot, they'd be in serious trouble right now; not as much as Leeds (because they haven't overstretched themselves as much), and could probably weather it for a season or two, but still; they're all flying very close to the sun.

Selling Wayne Rooney pulled Everton's goolies out of the fire; the ~£30M they got from that has buffered them nicely for the last few years (debts came down, therefore interest came down, TV cash went up) so they could afford the likes of Johnson and Lescott. A few bad seasons, though, and they're in deep crap.

I have a lot of sympathy for chairmen like Simon Jordan, Doug Ellis and Jeremy Peace (all often hated by their supporters), who say they won't bankrupt the club to risk success; it's really the only wise way, but supporters don't want to hear it. Even their clubs are in debt; it's a question of how much they can stomach. The idea of running a club that operates entirely in the black died a few decades ago. It's still alive in the lower leagues.

The interesting thing is the corrupting nature of the debt. The big leagues don't want the Champions' League places reduced as the finances of their most money-spinning teams depend on them. Everyone bent over backwards to cut Leeds some slack (if they'd been a normal company, they'd have disappeared). Governments and organisational bodies now find it in their interest to support their clubs' debt. Perhaps it's going to take a crash to solve it. The trouble is that the global market isn't yet saturated, so SKY can continue to up the money based on projected growths in earnings. When the market is fully saturated, or the debt outstrips the rate of increase, many clubs could come tumbling down.


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Very well argued by nebbish (4.00 / 2) #29 Tue May 15, 2007 at 11:38:48 AM EST
Yet again I bow to your superior knowledge

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It's political correctness gone mad!
[ Parent ]

Ta by yicky yacky (4.00 / 2) #30 Tue May 15, 2007 at 12:26:23 PM EST

The point I was trying to get across, but failed I think, was that you shouldn't blame Leeds too much. They were further out on the limb than other clubs, but the others were right there next to them, not too far behind. A hideous thought, but Leeds' misadventures probably saved other clubs (i.e. their rivals) from the same fate.


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Cheers by nebbish (4.00 / 2) #16 Tue May 15, 2007 at 06:20:00 AM EST
Lost for words though. Fucking sucks :(

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It's political correctness gone mad!
[ Parent ]

Yeah,,, by Metatone (4.00 / 3) #21 Tue May 15, 2007 at 07:47:57 AM EST
Hopefully all the financial dealing will put the club in a good position to bounce straight back up. If so, they still have the fan base to get back to the top flight, although the stadium ownership still has question marks, IIRC...

[ Parent ]

That made me laugh out loud by nebbish (4.00 / 2) #22 Tue May 15, 2007 at 07:54:13 AM EST
In a very bitter way. I hope you're right, but it just seems pretty hopeless from where I'm sitting.

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It's political correctness gone mad!
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If you need hope... by Metatone (4.00 / 3) #24 Tue May 15, 2007 at 07:59:08 AM EST
realise that I've seen my club go down 2 divisions to the Conference(I've seen some of the smallest grounds in the country, now!) have the chairman try to have the stadium burned down for the insurance, etc. etc. BUT, we bounced back.

Next year will be another season... </cliche>

[ Parent ]

Burning the stadium down by nebbish (4.00 / 2) #27 Tue May 15, 2007 at 09:33:15 AM EST
Mate, that is brilliant. I'd be very proud.

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It's political correctness gone mad!
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Scientamatology etc. by Metatone (4.00 / 2) #2 Mon May 14, 2007 at 11:19:25 AM EST
My own knowledge is only through one acquaintance who thought it was really great, but then changed his mind after some time with the organisation.

To me they seem to be explicitly what most other religions are implicitly. The pressure to do favours for other members of your church was just as high on another friend in a US (mainstream Christian, but I can't remember which) church, but there wasn't the overt presentation of exchange.

Hard cases make bad law and all that though, as you note.



Religion/cult/whatever by Herring (4.00 / 2) #4 Mon May 14, 2007 at 12:57:22 PM EST
I thought the definition was: < 10 people = mental illness, < 500,000 = cult, > 500,000 = religion.

I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. - Bill Bailey


My favorite definition by wumpus (4.00 / 3) #15 Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:48:21 PM EST
is said to come from L. Sprague de Camp. A religion is something you are (expected to be) born into. A cult you have to convert to.

Wumpus

[ Parent ]

Man U by ammoniacal (4.00 / 2) #6 Mon May 14, 2007 at 02:05:56 PM EST
What about Watford? by leviramsey (4.00 / 1) #9 Mon May 14, 2007 at 04:05:39 PM EST

Watford and Blackburn advanced equally far in the non-country-club section of the FA Cup after all...


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Could I be the next Lee Abrams?


Relative-thrashing adjusted [nt] by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #12 Mon May 14, 2007 at 04:23:48 PM EST

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